[App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 85, Issue 56

KM4NRJ FLORIDA km4nrj at gmail.com
Wed Mar 30 16:53:08 EDT 2016


Maybe I am way off here and there are plans to use voting for digital down
the road like Digitac Motorola does. They go further and actually
reconstruct packets that fail from a site using data from all sites.

Having said that, in the analog world using Moto SpectraTac comparators for
many years it wasn't that noticeable because all was analog from every
field receiver in a 1247 square mile County.

With the ADC to DAC process, I shudder at thinking of a timed referencing
synchronization of various source sites using public Internet transport.  I
mean even in the "fire and forget" world of UDP protocol, the network
cannot cope.

Unless you are talking private links using microwave unlicensed spectrum
technology, I think it may be a hair puller.

Interesting project though.
On Mar 30, 2016 12:30, <app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Jeff Ackerman)
>    2. Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Bryan Fields)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:28:32 -0700
> From: Jeff Ackerman <kg6uyz at gmail.com>
> To: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com>
> Cc: info at meshnetworks.co.nz, app_rpt mailing list
>         <app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAKmcLtJRAnL_-rPHYQHs6cq-eyXY3FmxC-FkNU9rbWUU9+NkYQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> XIPAR does not do GPS timing of the audio so there will be no timing of
> audio.  Its called "simple voter", no frills.  XIPAR simply selects the
> best receiver based on DSP signal strength measurements.
>
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com> wrote:
>
> > Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network latency?
> >
> >
> > On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:
> >
> > If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the varuious app_rpt
> > flavors you can try XIPAR:  <http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter>
> > http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter
> >
> > It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much simpler, doesnt
> > require anything more then PC's, the IP backhaul and usb radio interfaces
> > with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.
> >
> > Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but require the
> > backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire e&m voice
> > circuits using either tone signaling or e&m signaling. (This method of
> > voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Here are some products to start with;
> >>
> >> There is the Raven M4x
> >>
> >> http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf
> >>
> >> Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this product is up in the air,
> >> it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits, IP connectivity
> >> needs to be overlaid)
> >> http://www.simulcastsolutions.com/userfiles/file/appnotes/vSnv12App.pdf
> >>
> >> Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has pretty much abandoned
> >> analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)
> >>
> http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/spectra-tac/spectratac-index.html
> >>
> >> The above voters all use some method of signal/noise voting. The JPS
> >> SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision, while the Spectra Tac
> >> was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a status tone/audio AGC
> >> level. The SpectraTac does not support non-Motorola receivers unless you
> >> know the "secret sauce" which I am privy to.
> >>
> >> This site has some practical examples of projects that are simulcast,
> but
> >> by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.
> >>
> >> www.simulcastsolutions.com
> >>
> >> Are you looking for some more in depth RF design aspects of receiver
> >> voting? I can help perhaps.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> www.leikhim.com
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 05/03/16 06:00,  mike at midnighteng.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt if you want to do it
> >>>> right.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I can read about?
> >>>
> >>> Non-RTCM please.  I know about the RTCM and I'm looking at
> alternatives.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> App_rpt-users mailing list
> >>> App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
> >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
> >>>
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> >>> down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the
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> >>> confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message
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> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Joe Leikhim
> >>
> >>
> >> Leikhim and Associates
> >>
> >> Communications Consultants
> >>
> >> Oviedo, Florida
> >>
> >> JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
> >>
> >> 407-982-0446
> >>
> >> WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> App_rpt-users mailing list
> >> App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
> >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Ackerman
> > kg6uyz at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joe Leikhim
> >
> >
> > Leikhim and Associates
> >
> > Communications Consultants
> >
> > Oviedo, Florida
> > JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
> > 407-982-0446
> > WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jeff Ackerman
> kg6uyz at gmail.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:30:16 -0400
> From: Bryan Fields <bryan at bryanfields.net>
> To: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?
> Message-ID: <749F182A-496E-4894-83A8-5A782C32862B at bryanfields.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I don't believe it does.
>
> Does anyone have a link to the xipar source repository?   I'd like to take
> a look how they are doing it.  It might be possible to do it via 1588 or
> some other network time protocol.
>
> On March 30, 2016 12:01:38 PM EDT, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com>
> wrote:
> >Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network latency?
> >
> >On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:
> >> If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the varuious app_rpt
> >> flavors you can try XIPAR: http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter
> >>
> >> It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much simpler,
> >> doesnt require anything more then PC's, the IP backhaul and usb radio
> >
> >> interfaces with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.
> >>
> >> Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but require the
> >> backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire e&m voice
> >> circuits using either tone signaling or e&m signaling. (This method
> >of
> >> voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com
> >> <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Here are some products to start with;
> >>
> >>     There is the Raven M4x
> >>
> >>     http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf
> >>
> >>     Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this product is up in
> >>     the air, it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,
> >IP
> >>     connectivity needs to be overlaid)
> >>
> >http://www.simulcastsolutions.com/userfiles/file/appnotes/vSnv12App.pdf
> >>
> >>     Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has pretty much
> >>     abandoned analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)
> >>
> >
> http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/spectra-tac/spectratac-index.html
> >>
> >>     The above voters all use some method of signal/noise voting. The
> >>     JPS SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision, while the
> >>     Spectra Tac was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a
> >>     status tone/audio AGC level. The SpectraTac does not support
> >>     non-Motorola receivers unless you know the "secret sauce" which I
> >>     am privy to.
> >>
> >>     This site has some practical examples of projects that are
> >>     simulcast, but by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.
> >>
> >>     www.simulcastsolutions.com <http://www.simulcastsolutions.com>
> >>
> >>     Are you looking for some more in depth RF design aspects of
> >>     receiver voting? I can help perhaps.
> >>
> >>     Joe
> >>
> >>     www.leikhim.com <http://www.leikhim.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:
> >>
> >>         On 05/03/16 06:00, mike at midnighteng.com
> >>         <mailto:mike at midnighteng.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>             FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt if you want
> >>             to do it right.
> >>
> >>
> >>         Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I can read
> >about?
> >>
> >>         Non-RTCM please.  I know about the RTCM and I'm looking at
> >>         alternatives.
> >>
> >>
> >>         Many thanks,
> >>         Steve
> >>
> >>         _______________________________________________
> >>         App_rpt-users mailing list
> >>         App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
> >>         http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
> >>
> >>         To unsubscribe from this list please visit
> >>         http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and
> >>         scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email
> >>         address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
> >>         You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via
> >>         email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please
> >>         send a message to the list detailing the problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>     --
> >>     Joe Leikhim
> >>
> >>
> >>     Leikhim and Associates
> >>
> >>     Communications Consultants
> >>
> >>     Oviedo, Florida
> >>
> >>     JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
> >>
> >>     407-982-0446 <tel:407-982-0446>
> >>
> >>     WWW.LEIKHIM.COM <http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM>
> >>
> >>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     App_rpt-users mailing list
> >>     App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
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> >email
> >>     confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a
> >>     message to the list detailing the problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jeff Ackerman
> >> kg6uyz at gmail.com <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com>
> >
> >--
> >Joe Leikhim
> >
> >
> >Leikhim and Associates
> >
> >Communications Consultants
> >
> >Oviedo, Florida
> >
> >JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
> >
> >407-982-0446
> >
> >WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >App_rpt-users mailing list
> >App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
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> >You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email
> >confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message
> >to the list detailing the problem.
>
> --
> Bryan Fields
> 727-409-1194
> http://bryanfields.net
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