[App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 85, Issue 56

Joe Leikhim rhyolite at leikhim.com
Wed Mar 30 18:46:15 EDT 2016


The Digitac Voter reconstructs received data in the Securenet digital 
voice mode only. On mixed mode systems, the analog audio is processed in 
same way the SpectraTac  worked, it is an analog VF channel. The 
Astro-Tac processes same way but is for ASTRO or P25 digital modes.

In the analog world, if you want to go over the IP and you know the 
exact time at each site and at the voter (via GPS), the voter can buffer 
several hundred of milliseconds and wait for all the straggling audio 
"bits" to arrive. In theory, if later than the buffer depth,  those late 
sites might be ignored.

On 3/30/2016 4:53 PM, KM4NRJ FLORIDA wrote:
>
> Maybe I am way off here and there are plans to use voting for digital 
> down the road like Digitac Motorola does. They go further and actually 
> reconstruct packets that fail from a site using data from all sites.
>
> Having said that, in the analog world using Moto SpectraTac 
> comparators for many years it wasn't that noticeable because all was 
> analog from every field receiver in a 1247 square mile County.
>
> With the ADC to DAC process, I shudder at thinking of a timed 
> referencing synchronization of various source sites using public 
> Internet transport.  I mean even in the "fire and forget" world of UDP 
> protocol, the network cannot cope.
>
> Unless you are talking private links using microwave unlicensed 
> spectrum technology, I think it may be a hair puller.
>
> Interesting project though.
>
> On Mar 30, 2016 12:30, <app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org 
> <mailto:app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org>> wrote:
>
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>     Today's Topics:
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>        1. Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Jeff Ackerman)
>        2. Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Bryan Fields)
>
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Message: 1
>     Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:28:32 -0700
>     From: Jeff Ackerman <kg6uyz at gmail.com <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com>>
>     To: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>>
>     Cc: info at meshnetworks.co.nz <mailto:info at meshnetworks.co.nz>,
>     app_rpt mailing list
>             <app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?
>     Message-ID:
>            
>     <CAKmcLtJRAnL_-rPHYQHs6cq-eyXY3FmxC-FkNU9rbWUU9+NkYQ at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAKmcLtJRAnL_-rPHYQHs6cq-eyXY3FmxC-FkNU9rbWUU9%2BNkYQ at mail.gmail.com>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>     XIPAR does not do GPS timing of the audio so there will be no
>     timing of
>     audio.  Its called "simple voter", no frills.  XIPAR simply
>     selects the
>     best receiver based on DSP signal strength measurements.
>
>     On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com
>     <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>
>     > Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network latency?
>     >
>     >
>     > On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:
>     >
>     > If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the varuious app_rpt
>     > flavors you can try XIPAR: 
>     <http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter>
>     > http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter
>     >
>     > It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much
>     simpler, doesnt
>     > require anything more then PC's, the IP backhaul and usb radio
>     interfaces
>     > with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.
>     >
>     > Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but require the
>     > backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire e&m voice
>     > circuits using either tone signaling or e&m signaling. (This
>     method of
>     > voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)
>     >
>     > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim
>     <rhyolite at leikhim.com <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >> Here are some products to start with;
>     >>
>     >> There is the Raven M4x
>     >>
>     >> http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf
>     >>
>     >> Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this product is up in
>     the air,
>     >> it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits, IP
>     connectivity
>     >> needs to be overlaid)
>     >>
>     http://www.simulcastsolutions.com/userfiles/file/appnotes/vSnv12App.pdf
>     >>
>     >> Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has pretty much
>     abandoned
>     >> analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)
>     >>
>     http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/spectra-tac/spectratac-index.html
>     >>
>     >> The above voters all use some method of signal/noise voting.
>     The JPS
>     >> SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision, while the
>     Spectra Tac
>     >> was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a status
>     tone/audio AGC
>     >> level. The SpectraTac does not support non-Motorola receivers
>     unless you
>     >> know the "secret sauce" which I am privy to.
>     >>
>     >> This site has some practical examples of projects that are
>     simulcast, but
>     >> by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.
>     >>
>     >> www.simulcastsolutions.com <http://www.simulcastsolutions.com>
>     >>
>     >> Are you looking for some more in depth RF design aspects of
>     receiver
>     >> voting? I can help perhaps.
>     >>
>     >> Joe
>     >>
>     >> www.leikhim.com <http://www.leikhim.com>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> On 05/03/16 06:00, mike at midnighteng.com
>     <mailto:mike at midnighteng.com> wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>>> FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt if you want to
>     do it
>     >>>> right.
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>> Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I can read about?
>     >>>
>     >>> Non-RTCM please.  I know about the RTCM and I'm looking at
>     alternatives.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Many thanks,
>     >>> Steve
>     >>>
>     >>> _______________________________________________
>     >>> App_rpt-users mailing list
>     >>> App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>     >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>     >>>
>     >>> To unsubscribe from this list please visit
>     >>> <http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users>
>     >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and
>     scroll
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>     >>> the list detailing the problem.
>     >>>
>     >>
>     >> --
>     >> Joe Leikhim
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Leikhim and Associates
>     >>
>     >> Communications Consultants
>     >>
>     >> Oviedo, Florida
>     >>
>     >> JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
>     >>
>     >> 407-982-0446 <tel:407-982-0446>
>     >>
>     >> WWW.LEIKHIM.COM <http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> App_rpt-users mailing list
>     >> App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>     >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>     >>
>     >> To unsubscribe from this list please visit
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>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > Jeff Ackerman
>     > kg6uyz at gmail.com <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com>
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > Joe Leikhim
>     >
>     >
>     > Leikhim and Associates
>     >
>     > Communications Consultants
>     >
>     > Oviedo, Florida
>     > JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
>     > 407-982-0446 <tel:407-982-0446>
>     > WWW.LEIKHIM.COM <http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM>
>     >
>     >
>
>
>     --
>     Jeff Ackerman
>     kg6uyz at gmail.com <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com>
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>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 2
>     Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:30:16 -0400
>     From: Bryan Fields <bryan at bryanfields.net
>     <mailto:bryan at bryanfields.net>>
>     To: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?
>     Message-ID: <749F182A-496E-4894-83A8-5A782C32862B at bryanfields.net
>     <mailto:749F182A-496E-4894-83A8-5A782C32862B at bryanfields.net>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>     I don't believe it does.
>
>     Does anyone have a link to the xipar source repository?   I'd like
>     to take a look how they are doing it.  It might be possible to do
>     it via 1588 or some other network time protocol.
>
>     On March 30, 2016 12:01:38 PM EDT, Joe Leikhim
>     <rhyolite at leikhim.com <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>     >Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network latency?
>     >
>     >On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:
>     >> If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the varuious
>     app_rpt
>     >> flavors you can try XIPAR: http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter
>     >>
>     >> It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much simpler,
>     >> doesnt require anything more then PC's, the IP backhaul and usb
>     radio
>     >
>     >> interfaces with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.
>     >>
>     >> Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but require the
>     >> backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire e&m voice
>     >> circuits using either tone signaling or e&m signaling. (This method
>     >of
>     >> voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)
>     >>
>     >> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim
>     <rhyolite at leikhim.com <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>
>     >> <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>     Here are some products to start with;
>     >>
>     >>     There is the Raven M4x
>     >>
>     >> http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf
>     >>
>     >>     Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this product is up in
>     >>     the air, it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,
>     >IP
>     >>     connectivity needs to be overlaid)
>     >>
>     >http://www.simulcastsolutions.com/userfiles/file/appnotes/vSnv12App.pdf
>     >>
>     >>     Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has pretty much
>     >>     abandoned analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)
>     >>
>     >http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/spectra-tac/spectratac-index.html
>     >>
>     >>     The above voters all use some method of signal/noise
>     voting. The
>     >>     JPS SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision,
>     while the
>     >>     Spectra Tac was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a
>     >>     status tone/audio AGC level. The SpectraTac does not support
>     >>     non-Motorola receivers unless you know the "secret sauce"
>     which I
>     >>     am privy to.
>     >>
>     >>     This site has some practical examples of projects that are
>     >>     simulcast, but by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.
>     >>
>     >> www.simulcastsolutions.com <http://www.simulcastsolutions.com>
>     <http://www.simulcastsolutions.com>
>     >>
>     >>     Are you looking for some more in depth RF design aspects of
>     >>     receiver voting? I can help perhaps.
>     >>
>     >>     Joe
>     >>
>     >> www.leikhim.com <http://www.leikhim.com> <http://www.leikhim.com>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:
>     >>
>     >>         On 05/03/16 06:00, mike at midnighteng.com
>     <mailto:mike at midnighteng.com>
>     >>         <mailto:mike at midnighteng.com
>     <mailto:mike at midnighteng.com>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>             FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt if
>     you want
>     >>             to do it right.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>         Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I can read
>     >about?
>     >>
>     >>         Non-RTCM please.  I know about the RTCM and I'm looking at
>     >>         alternatives.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>         Many thanks,
>     >>         Steve
>     >>
>     >>  _______________________________________________
>     >>         App_rpt-users mailing list
>     >> App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>     <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>>
>     >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>     >>
>     >>         To unsubscribe from this list please visit
>     >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and
>     >>         scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email
>     >>         address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
>     >>         You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do
>     it via
>     >>         email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing,
>     please
>     >>         send a message to the list detailing the problem.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     --
>     >>     Joe Leikhim
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     Leikhim and Associates
>     >>
>     >>     Communications Consultants
>     >>
>     >>     Oviedo, Florida
>     >>
>     >>     JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
>     >>
>     >> 407-982-0446 <tel:407-982-0446> <tel:407-982-0446
>     <tel:407-982-0446>>
>     >>
>     >> WWW.LEIKHIM.COM <http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM> <http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     _______________________________________________
>     >>     App_rpt-users mailing list
>     >> App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>     <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>>
>     >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>     >>
>     >>     To unsubscribe from this list please visit
>     >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and
>     >>     scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address
>     >>     and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
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>     >>     confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a
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>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> --
>     >> Jeff Ackerman
>     >> kg6uyz at gmail.com <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com>
>     <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com <mailto:kg6uyz at gmail.com>>
>     >
>     >--
>     >Joe Leikhim
>     >
>     >
>     >Leikhim and Associates
>     >
>     >Communications Consultants
>     >
>     >Oviedo, Florida
>     >
>     >JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
>     >
>     >407-982-0446 <tel:407-982-0446>
>     >
>     >WWW.LEIKHIM.COM <http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     >_______________________________________________
>     >App_rpt-users mailing list
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>     --
>     Bryan Fields
>     727-409-1194 <tel:727-409-1194>
>     http://bryanfields.net
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-- 
Joe Leikhim


Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

JLeikhim at Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

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